Fish Smoking Question

[Scottie's Gourmet Meats]

Ok, so I have been smoking fish for a couple of years now in a large home built smoker, and have smoked hundreds of lbs of fish in a simple salt brine (sorry, grandma made me promise I wouldn't give out the exact recipe! ;D :D ;) ). I get the fish frozen, i have a buddy that is a fish broker and I get great fish that is fresh frozen at sea and I get it CHEAP!Anyway, I thaw it, filet it, brine it, smoke it, then let it cool and vacuum pack it. Nobody I know has ever gotten sick from this, but I am reading about botulism on this forum, now do I need to be worried? My fish has a fairly high salt content, which of course is a natural preservative.
Kummok? Any input? Sounds like you know quite a bit about this stuff.... Anyways, I will take all the input I can get.
Thanks!
Oh yeah, and I keep it refridgerated at 36F after vacuum packed for up to 60 days max (it usually doesn't last that long) but if it goes longer than that, I freeze it.

Thanks again!

[Smokeville]

Hi Scottie;

Here in Canada, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has posted that vacuum sealed smoked fish must be frozen unless it meets certain criteria such as being heat processed after packing or has a certain salt content. The salt content must be verified according to certain guidelines. This document has found it's way into some FDA guidelines I have found.

Check this thread for more information....

Also, a number of commercially sold products have a "Product Care" label that tells the purchaser to cut a slit in the bag before defrosting overnight in the fridge. Although it doesn't say give the reason, this is to release the vacuum which is what provides the environment where botulism can thrive.

So, what's the risk?

Probably near to zero. But not worth taking, in my opinion. So now I am freezing everything and cutting the slit before I defrost.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Rich

[BuyLowSellHigh]

Oh yeah, and I keep it refridgerated at 36F after vacuum packed for up to 60 days max (it usually doesn't last that long) but if it goes longer than that, I freeze it.

Is that a typo ? Sixty days under refrigeration is a very long time.  If your product has held well, then your sanitation must be superb!

Smokeville has headed you in the right direction.  He does it commercially and is inspected by his local Candian health department. Like he says, the risk is probaby very, very low.  But if something were to run amok the consequences can be quite serious.

I believe the thread he was referring to was this one

We tend to worry about botulinium the most because it is both one of the hardest to control and the disease consequences (botulism) can be dire.  However, the facts suggest tat the probability of infection is extremely remote if normal handling and storage guidelines are followed.  With fish Listeria is far more likely.

Here is a good, straightforward useful publication from the Univ. of Alaska Extension Service on smoking fish at home.  It provides good guidance for doing it safely, including storage.

http://www.uaf.edu/ces/publications-db/catalog/hec/FNH-00325.pdf




 

[schneep]

I hot smoke all my fish, and vac seal when cool, and then freeze, and have never had any issues.  Up to 6 months latter I can take it out and let it thaw and everything is fine.
I use Kummok's brine recipe from this site and always brine for 12+ hours and follow the smoking procedure on that recipe, usually running the middle heat time a little longer.

All fish is fresh caught, Coho Salmon, Chinook Salmon, Brown Trout, SteelHead Salmon, Lake Trout, and is usually processed fresh before ever being frozen.

Just did a 19 lb, Brown Trout, 1/2 of a 23 lb Chinook Salmon and a 8 lb Steelie for Christmas munchies.

[Smokeville]

Thanks BLSH -- I meant to find the thread and edit the post and I forgot....

The reality is that botulism is not a parasite. This had me confused for a while, thinking that if I froze the fish to the recommended temperatures, or made sure the fish was completely cooked, all would be ok. But botulism is a spore that can survive a lot. Only cooking to above 250F will kill it. If it has the right conditions -- and vacuum sealing is perfect -- it will release the toxin. But, only if the spore is present. My understanding is that when we let the fish air dry to form the pellicle or after when it cools are ideal times for the spore to land. If any happen to be floating by.

All that said, last August when my wife and I began to sell our fish, the health department inspected us and came to a full understanding of our process. This was vac sealing but not freezing. They also inspected our booth and saw the fish on ice. There was no mention of the CFIA guidelines requiring freezing. Perhaps we misunderstood each other... It was only in late November when I discovered the CFIA requirements. In those 3 months we sold a lot of fish that was vac sealed and not frozen, and no one got sick.

So, next summer we will offer frozen fish, but also unfrozen fish wrapped with Saran-wrap. It's a bummer but it's worth it.

Have a great Christmas, everyone!

Rich (who is eating smoked turkey for dinner)

[Kummok]

I'm definitely NOT the one to ask about such things, Scottie. Not that I wouldn't help you out....just that I'm the poster dude for long term storage....Botulisms invite me to their annual conference as the Guest of Honor! I've been known to eat vac sealed smoked salmon out of the freezer that is 3 years old!! :o :o

I do pretty much the same as you except that the sealed packs go immediately into the freezer and the average temps for my smoked and non-smoked fish is maintained at -25°F ... I LOVE that freezer!  Once outta the freezer, the package is opened (or mailed to family/friends!) and treated pretty much like cheese...I cut off any small mold that might develop if I "loose" a piece in the reefer, and eat it....I don't give any of the "salvaged" fish away to anyone and it doesn't often happen that a piece gets mold but I'm definitely old school that way! I don't recommend this to anyone...it's just the way I do it.

Regarding the freezing....to my own tastes, the salmon tastes better after freezing than it does fresh outta the smoker, so I have no reservation at all about freezing. Also, long term storage is greatly improved by freezing at -°F temps...I have four freezers and only one gets to -25°F (it gets the fish), another gets to -10° (it gets the game)...the other two touch 0°F so they get the processed junk we get from stores.