Kielbasa

Oldman · March 12, 2006, 08:21:53 AM

Greets all. I was looking around at Polish sausage recipes as it is a pet project with me. What is funny all, and I have posted this before, is someone adds garlic and all of a sudden it is Kielbasa!

While I'm sure that all of the "Polish Sausage" listed taste great they are a long ways away IMO from true Kielbasa my Polish Grandfather taught me.

I was looking the other day and I found one recipe that has in it:
Sweet paprika---Uh?????? What??? Where in God's Green Earth did this idea come from????
Marjoram-----come on marjorams are oreganos... Italian anyone? Good Lordie another foolish idea. At least get into the Cinnamomum Family. (Hint!)
Beef--yuck. If you feel the need to stroke the Beef then at least do it some justice... Make Jaeger's Beef Sticks
Veal--Oh please. Another type of beef--good for beef jerkey????? You tell me. I have red sauce and cheese on my Veal...!

Now if these items are not bad enough that recipe called for ground allspice instead of whole! Ya...Now that is part of the trick isn't it? How to use whole allspice and yet not have it in your sausage.

Now that Momma is Older I asked her if I could l be released from my promise not to share our recipe that has been in my family for generations. She thought if over and said... you can give hints but otherwise not until my death.

I will give these hints:
Items of importance are:
Boston butts AND their bones.
Garlic.
Whole Allspice.

Now within this posting a sharp/ Older sausage maker might be able to put together the basic foundation of my family's recipe. All basic items * needed have be listed somewhere here. What I have not told you are amounts, or the two part methodology we use. A methodology I have never seen listed in any type of sausage recipe before. If you cannot figure out part two of our method you will never figure out how to use whole allspice. One last hint: If I was to try to figure this out I would list all the items posted here and then ask myself how to extract out their flavorings.

As I said a sharp/ Older sausage maker might be able to put this together. This will be interesting to see if anyone tries.

 *Items such as salt, pepper, cure go without saying. Personally there is so little pepper in mine that I only put in the amount that I do to make Momma happy. [:D]

Olds

Oldman · March 12, 2006, 04:14:14 PM

LOL.....43 reads and no takers.... [:D] What the only sausage makers here use the pre-packaged stuff with instuctions??? LOL~~! Ya this is a challenge... [^]

Olds

Seminole · March 12, 2006, 11:19:49 PM

Oldman,

Let me add more information on the most popular Polish sausage:

In February 2005, a group of Polish butchers decided to preserve the dying art of sausage making techniques and one decided to publish the recipes. A site was born: www.wedlinydomowe.pl (Polish version) and www.wedlinydomowe.com (in English) followed in July, 2005.

Let's unravel some of the mystery:

Poles don't say "sausage" – they call it "Kielbasa". There is not one universal sausage (kielbasa), but rather I myself have a list of 100 different sausages made in Poland. So which one are we talking about ? Well, we are specifically discussing Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona) and its imitations can be found in every supermarket in the USA.

1. Polish Smoked Sausage is made entirely of pork . There are sausages like "Mysliwska" (Hunter's sausage) that are made with pork and beef, but nevertheless, the traditional Polish Smoked Sausage is made of pork and the following: salt, pepper, sugar, garlic, and marjoram. The marjoram is optional but the garlic is a must. As recommended by the Polish Government in 1958, this is how sausage was supposed to be made. Yes, the way meat products were made (especially those for export) was regulated by the Government, down to the last technical detail.

Even today the Polish Government publishes a Set of Norms that dictates how to make most popular Polish sausages and Smoked Sausage is still made the same way. Anybody can buy those detailed recipes. The Government has the final say, no questions about it. To buy sausage prepared in the traditional way, you have to live in either New York, Chicago, or any city where you can still find Polish butchers.

Polish Smoked Sausage is made from the ingredients mentioned above plus sodium nitrite (as a rule, you don't smoke anything without sodium nitrite).
2. The meat is cured before it is mixed with spices.
3. It is stuffed into a large casing: about 38 mm.
4. The recommended way is to cold smoke it for 1 to 1.5 days, but this creates problems for people living in the South. To go by the book they will have to perform smoking only in the winter time.
Because of the climate in most cases the sausage is smoked with hot smoke and the entire smoking/cooking process can be accomplished in 3 hours. There is of course a difference in quality and flavor between cold smoked and hot smoked version.

You can of course add anything you like to your sausage, but it will no longer be Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona). Once you add your own final touches, come up with your own name.

Copyright ©2005 wedlinydomowe.com All rights reserved

Arcs_n_Sparks · March 13, 2006, 01:14:05 AM

Oldman,

Some of us dogs on this board know this is not the first time you are baiting us on the Kielbasa question![8D]

I am just being patient until the day you provide the answer, I will then grind up a number of butts and put it to the test.[:p]

Arcs_n_Sparks

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 01:54:08 AM

Seminole,

What give you the right to hi-jack this thread? The subject is to figure out the recipe. Nevertheless Sir, I'm not really impressed with what some modern day government establishes or what some butchers come up with in 2005.

What I do care about is this recipe is well over 120 years old. My Great Grandfather taught my Grandfather who in turn taught my Mother and early on in my youth he taught me. This time-line speaks for itself. So much for the Johnny come lately.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the traditional Polish Smoked Sausage is made of pork and the following: salt, pepper, sugar, garlic, and marjoram. The marjoram is optional but the garlic is a must.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

After reading that I wanted to laugh. I understand why after Sunday's church meeting my Grandfather's sausage was always the first to be eating at the church dinner. With a recipe like that it is easy to see why. Sugar? LOL I will not even go there! Marjoram as I said they are oreganos.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">as a rule, you don't smoke anything without sodium nitrite<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Wow... smokin' for 45 years plus and I've been doing it wrong all of this time... gee guess I'm dead but the ghost has not left yet.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> There is not one universal sausage (kielbasa), but rather I myself have a list of 100 different sausages made in Poland.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> As I said, ...someone adds garlic and all of a sudden it is Kielbasa!

You can post all of the authoritarian statements you like. I know that before my Grandfather's death in 1975 many *cough* Polish sausage makers begged him for this recipe.

BTW every year around Christmas time I visit my Grandfather's Polish Church with Mother. There is one question I'm asked over and over again--31 years after his death. "Did you bring any of your Grandfather's sausage?"

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can of course add anything you like to your sausage, but it will no longer be Polish Smoked Sausage (Polska Kielbasa Wedzona). Once you add your own final touches, come up with your own name.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> This flat out insults 4 generations of my Polish family...this is your one warning. Do it again and the gamer will come out of me and I will be all over you like what the whale leaves on the bottom of the ocean!

We all have a right to post here. However, your use of a weak door to intro what is without a doubt a "related off topic" in effort to establish yourself is not appreciated. If you cannot contribute to the thread's theme but need to say something then I suggest you create a new thread.

OK now that the hi-jack of this thread's theme is over with is anyone willing to try and figure out that recipe?

Olds

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 01:58:29 AM

arcs_n_sparks

You going to have to wait a long time. Mother is only 75 and kicking like a chicken being plucked... [:D] She still has Aunts in Poland that tend their gardens. [^] Her Mother was 95 when she moved on.

If anyone gets close to the recipe I will again ask Mother. If she agrees then I will set up a private posting board on the recipe site and walk those persons through it.

The only reason I'm willing to do this is I believe I'm the last in the line. I had high hopes for one in my family group... but those are lost hopes.

I would rather see this great recipe shared and enjoyed than lost in my passing. I believe my Grandfather would agree... I know Mother does.

Olds

Arcs_n_Sparks · March 13, 2006, 11:24:48 AM

Oldman,

I figured as much. I may try your clues in a few weekends, as I've already got my freezer full of breakfast and italian sausage right now.

Arcs_n_Sparks

Seminole · March 13, 2006, 12:02:34 PM

Oldman,

I have added what I have thought some new interesting information on Polish Smoked Sausage but you seem to take it very personal. Sort of like I was trying to steal your topic from you. As far as smoking without nitrates it is your personal choice. Nitrates are not used only to prevent food poisoning...but to:

We had been and are still using nitrates because:

1. We like our meats to be red not only when they are fresh but after cooking or smoking, too.
Nitrates can preserve meat's natural color. The same piece of ham when roasted will have light brown color and is known as roasted leg of pork. Add some nitrates to it , apply smoke or boil it and it becomes ham with its characteristic flavor and pink color.
2. Nitrates impart to a meat a characteristic cured flavor
3. Nitrates prevent transformation of botulinum spores into toxins thus eliminating the possibility of food poisoning

Without proper development conditions, C. botulinum bacteria lay low in a spore form, and can remain dormant for years. To grow, these bacteria require a slightly acidic, oxygen free environment that is warm (40-120 F) and moist, which is exactly what happens when we make our own meats, especially the smoked ones.

Let's follow a beautifully presented scenario on stuffing a turkey from the 1984 classic: "The Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. This book sold over 500,000 copies and the author mentions over and over again adding nitrates (Cure #1 or Cure #2)to smoked products.

"The well-intentioned cook decides to make the dressing for the turkey the night before. This gives her more time to do many other important things the next day. She stuffs the turkey the night before, and places it in the refrigerator to be cooked the next day.
Unfortunately, she doesn't know she is creating ideal conditions for food poisoning. Obviously, the stuffing that she put into the turkey is somewhere between 40 and 140 degrees F. Because the various parts of dressing have some sort of liquid in them, the moisture is also there. Lastly, she sews up the turkey to create a lack of oxygen in its cavity".

It is that simple to create food poisoning. All you need is a temperature of 40-140 F, moisture, and lack of oxygen, and a beautiful Thanksgiving turkey dinner can turn into disaster.

Of course when you cook/smoke a sausage at temperatures over 200 F you eliminate danger of food poisoning but sausages are smoked at much lower temperatures.

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 12:54:57 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by arcs_n_sparks
 Oldman,

I figured as much. I may try your clues in a few weekends, as I've already got my freezer full of breakfast and italian sausage right now.

Arcs_n_Sparks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You don't have to make it to figure it out...[:D]

Olds

zhongyi · March 13, 2006, 01:12:37 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldman
 
Now if these items are not bad enough that recipe called for ground allspice instead of whole! Ya...Now that is part of the trick isn't it? How to use whole allspice and yet not have it in your sausage.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've only made sausages one time so I am far from an expert. Since you are using whole allspice and pork bones, a logical explanation would be your making a simple meat stock then using the stock to help emulsify the pork and spices.

whitetailfan · March 13, 2006, 02:21:28 PM

Only the good Lord (or a good administrator) could find out where, but I'm sure I read this in one of your past posts (and that could have been any one of the over 2000 posts in the last 2 years)

However, I believe you boil the pork bones and allspice and set that concoction aside. After mixing spices in the meat, (I think you grind post spicing) you grind up your pork. For stuffing, all sausage recipes have a certain amount of water needed. In your case, you would now utilize the spicy pork water in the proper proportions, mix thouroughly, and proceed to stuff your casings. This gives you added flavour of the pork, plus the allspice without actually having the allspice buds in your finished product.

Anywhere in the ballpark Olds?

ps - your said to Seminole you have been smoking 45 years and ought to be dead because you don't use sodium nitrite, but in your original post you say "*Items such as salt, pepper, cure go without saying" Can I assume you are referring only to the fact you do not smoke EVERYTHING with cure? Butts, hams, etc?

whitetailfan
"Nice Rack"
Lethbridge, AB

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 02:25:33 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've only made sausages one time so I am far from an expert. Since you are using whole allspice and pork bones, a logical explanation would be your making a simple meat stock then using the stock to help emulsify the pork and spices.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I am impressed! Perhaps you might care to work up an idea using the items listed and the what you would do to create the base product. Amounts you will not have to list. But the order of events and what items used are important.

What would be even more impressive is if you can tell me what the two items--whole allspice and an item from the Cinnamomum Family--do to enhance this sausage. <hr noshade size="1"><hr noshade size="1"><hr noshade size="1"> Seminole again you seem to feel the need to jack this thread. Your blanket statement and I quote you again: as a rule, you don't smoke anything without sodium nitrite is so off base that it is not funny. If we listened to you then I guess we would all be turning our briskets/ pulled pork into cornbeef or pastrami. Or worse we would have to pickel our fish--Oh I can just see Kummok's face over that one. Plus we would just have to stop smokin' chickens.

This is my last time to ask you, Sir, to either contribute to this thread or stay the hell off of it. Your blanket statements Don't-Get-Er-Done! Get on topic or don't post. Is there something about this request in the English lanuage that you don't understand?
//SIGNED//
Raye Minor

Olds

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 02:41:42 PM

WTF you are very close... I'm impressed. No I don't use a cure in everything. I'm sure you don't either.
The stock is strained. However, the amounts of spices and how much of the stock is rendered down are a major factors.

In the old days my Grandfather did use potassium nitrate. The method of smoking was a pit in the ground with an upwards tunnel to a drum a few feet away. Was that a cold smoke? No. He always took the sausage to 140-150 F.

I've have cold smoked sausage and the problem is you always end up cooking it. Our stuff you can go to the frig and snap off a piece and enjoy it with bread and a beer. Dry cured is another story IMO. It is good, but for me it is not what I've come to expect from a quality Polish sausage.

What I'm waiting on is for someone to tell me just what member of the Cinnamomum Family is used as a spice.
Hope to cya in this Tues chat.

Olds

icerat4 · March 13, 2006, 02:57:05 PM

CINNAMON [cinnamon] name for trees and shrubs of the genus Cinnamomum of the family Lauraceae ( laurel family). Cinnamon spice comes chiefly from the Sri Lankan cinnamon ( C. zeylanicum ), now cultivated in several tropical regions. It is obtained by drying the central part of the bark and is marketed as stick cinnamon or in powdered form. The waste and other parts are used for oil of cinnamon, a medicine and flavoring. Cassia, cassia bark, or Chinese cinnamon ( C. cassia ) was used in China long before true cinnamon but is now considered an inferior substitute. Cinnamon and cassia (often confused) have been favorite spices since biblical times, used also as perfume and incense. Cinnamon is classified in the division Magnoliophyta , class Magnoliopsida, order Magnoliales, family Lauraceae.
LAUREL [laurel] common name for the Lauraceae, a family of forest trees and shrubs found mainly in tropical SE Asia but also abundant in tropical America. Most have aromatic bark and foliage and are evergreen; deciduous species are usually those that extend into temperate zones. The plants are important for aromatic oils and spices, edible fruits, and timber (e.g., from species of the largest genus, Ocotea ). The true laurel—that of history and classical literature—is Laurus nobilis, called also bay and sweet bay. It is native to the Mediterranean, where to the ancients it symbolized victory and merit and was sacred to Apollo. The fragrant leaves are sold commercially as bay leaf, a seasoning. Many plants of the unrelated heath family are also called laurels in the United States because of their similarly dark and glossy but poisonous leaves; the cherry laurel is a species of the rose family. A native American laurel is the evergreen California laurel ( Umbellularia californica ), also called pepperwood, bay-tree, and Oregon myrtle. It grows in California and Oregon and provides wood, medicinal leaves, and fruits that were eaten by Native Americans. Lindera benzoin, commonly called spicebush, benzoin, or wild allspice, is another fragrant species found in America; its powdered berries have been used as a substitute for allspice. All other Lindera species are Asian. The red bay ( Persea borbonia ) of the southeast coastal plains has very strong, bright reddish-brown heartwood used in cabinetmaking and interior finishing. P. americana, the alligator pear, or avocado (from Sp. aguacate ), has been cultivated in Mexico and Guatemala for millennia; it is now grown extensively in Florida and California and many parts of the moister tropics and subtropics for its nutritious oil-rich fruit and is used chiefly in salads. Sassafras ( Sassafras albidum ), a tree or shrub, was one of the first American plants to command the attention of European settlers, who exported it to the Old World as a high-priced panacea. Its aromatic bark is still occasionally used for medicinal tea, and its pulverized leaves for soup and condiments. Safrole, used in flavorings and medicinals, is obtained from oil of sassafras as well as from the camphor tree. The camphor tree, the cassia-bark tree, and the cinnamon tree all belong to the Asian genus Cinnamomum and are extensively cultivated for their aromatic bark (see cinnamon and camphor ). Many of the evergreen laurels are grown as hedges and, because of their handsome foliage, are used by florists. The laurel family is classified in the division Magnoliophyta , class Magnoliopsida, order Laurales.

Oldman · March 13, 2006, 03:09:36 PM

icerat4 gets the cigar~~! Shoot me over your mailing address to My Email Addy and I will see that you get 120 pucks of your choice. Or easier just order them from Chez and I will take care of the bill from him... Good Job [:D]

And the winner is:

Olds