Beef?

[MWS]

Maxon8, thanks for your posts. I have read with interest the replies and your comments. This kind of topic can be applied to many other consumer items as well. Cheers

[maxon8]

TomG,

I am no expert but from what I have seen the general public soon forget about the past (mad cows), in turn taking the easiest and most convenient route, supermarket shopping. Within this environment they will look at and buy the organic products, not because of mad cows but more for a general belief that it is better for you and yes they are happy to pay more.

If you then take that same person to an organic farm shop they become suspicious because they are having to think unlike the impulse buy supermarket shopping that they are used to. This becomes a massive negative to the small organic farmer / farm shop as they have a potential customer that needs educating first, not easy and yet 40 years ago this was not a problem because the supermarkets had not done the damage, everything was fresh and the thinking pure.

To your question is “small scale organic meat production a viable economic concept”. From the supermarket side yes because any losses can be offset against the profits in other areas in turn allowing them to unintelligently offer a service for as long as the demand lasts. They will ride it out to stop competition, they are very good at this but the farmer supplying them will have a rough ride. From the small farm /  farm shop end I think they will end up putting in a disproportionate amount of effort for not a great return or loyal customer base and therefore the chance of expanding or the farm passing to another generation is increasingly less likely. Many UK farms are now divided into flats / houses and every farm divided is one less potential organic farm. The supermarkets are on a winner, they will control all that we do and want, we are all being misled!.

[jaeger]

Don't blame the supermarkets for a lack of organic beef or the decrease in the small family farm. The same thing is happening in the U.S.  Lets face it, the cost of living increases for everything and everyone, including the small farmer/beef producer. If you are not big you are going to have a hard time making ends meet.
As far as organic beef, along with everything else in this world, it boils down to supply and demand. I don't know about your country, but in the U.S. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of shoppers have mad cow as the absolute last thing on there mind. You are far more likely to get run over in the parking lot at the supermarket than to get mad cow beef and people here know that.
Here is typical scenerio, Ma leaves to go get some hamburger for the grill. She has a decision to make, hamburger 2.69 lb or organic 3.99 lb. She has a family of 3.5 to feed, mortage to pay, gas to buy, insurance is due and $7000 in credit card debt. She chooses hamburger at 2.69. Now you are telling me this is the supermarkets fault?

they have a potential customer that needs educating first, not easy and yet 40 years ago this was not a problem because the supermarkets had not done the damage, everything was fresh and the thinking pure.

you do realize that trends change in EVERY industry. There are more people to feed now than there were 40 years ago. If the Supermarkets did things the same way they did 40 years ago, you would be paying 3x more than you are now. What makes that better?
Most markets don't even carry Prime grades of beef. You have to be in a highly populated metro to find it and is this the Supermarkets fault-No! Two reasons mainly,
One is cost. It cost a lot more to raise beef to a prime grade. It's not just coming from a nice farm with a scenic view and a stock dam close to the grass. You will pay for that steak because of the type of feed used to achieve that grade of carcass.
Second, is because of the fat content. If you see a true Prime grade steak displayed next to a Choice grade steak along side of a Select grade of the same cut steak you will notice a big difference in the fat content. People have been educated to know that fat is not good. High cost is a huge factor also. These grades of beef have been in effect in the U.S. for many years. The Supermarkets don't set the stardards for the grades of beef, they sell the grades that the customer will buy.

What this is about is trends. Hanging beef opposed to boxed beef. Forget about hanging beef, it's still available but it's not what the customer wants.
Just remember, the next time you buy a pound of hamburger at 2.69/lb you just punched the ticket for another "mass" produced beef.
It's your fault! :o

Peace out!!!

[manxman]

Both jaegar and maxon8 make very valid points IMHO. :)

She has a family of 3.5 to feed, mortage to pay, gas to buy, insurance is due and $7000 in credit card debt. She chooses hamburger at 2.69. Now you are telling me this is the supermarkets fault

The trouble is in the UK, the Social Security system is such that there are also a lot of scroungers in society. In many instances this family of 3.5 (or often 10!) will have free housing, free heating and spend the not inconsiderable amount they get in free handouts on designer clothing, the latest HD television and DVD recorder, cigarettes and beer rather than buying the best quality and nutritionally valuable food they can, particularly for the children, at a moderate increase in cost.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of hard working decent people on SS and they will struggle to pay the rent and bills and still provide the best food they can for the children and there but for the grace of God go many of us, but there is also a high percentage who take the mickey.

Couple that with the growing obesity problem both in the UK and US whereby a good meal is judged more on quantity than quality and the problem is not going to be resolved easily. Which is better, paying more for less quantity/more quality or paying less for more quantity/less quality!? Sadly in many areas, particularly inner city areas people don't even have a real choice any more.

Most people have forgotten about BSE, they do not care that E.Coli H0157 is more prevalent in intensively reared meat. They just want the cheapest food possible because of their priorities... an plasma screen telly is regarded as more essential than a healthy meal. And the supermarkets encourage this, they do very little to try and educate customers although I suppose it could be argued that is not their job.

However, my partner used to be a Supermarket Manager before serving in the police force in Manchester then becoming a Chartered Scientist, she has a pretty balanced view on things and keeps me in check when I get on my high horse! Supermarkets in my view are takers, they are purely profit driven with almost total disregard for customers, and in many instances staff. A good friend of mine is also in supermarket management and some of the practices that take place are scary to say the least. :o

Still, I use supermarkets to a large extent, we all have to. But I don't use them for fresh meat or fish, I use the butcher of fishmonger. I am lucky, I have access to both but many people don't because, in the main, the supermarkets have put them out of business.

One good thing is that many of the well known chefs here in the UK are doing a lot to change things by various means and I do believe the pendulum is SLOOOOWLY beginning to swing the other way. Not before there will be more BSE/E.Coli etc scares though! The consumer does has a lot to answer for but the supermarket must also accept a large share of the blame. Which came first..... the chicken or the egg!? ::) Probably salmonella contaminated in any case! ::)

Great topic....... and a massive subject! Thanks for starting it maxon8! ;D

   

[Oldman]

I've read this thread a couple of times with interest. I'm an organic gardener. I make my own growth containers. What I grow does it taste any better than what I can purchase? You betcha it does. Does it cost more? That depends upon how you do it. That depends upon your definition of cost which is reflected by the desire results you wish to attain.

Allow me to explain. There are two restaurants. Both sell beef. Both sell a salad. Both have a potato. Both have someone to take your order, and even give you change back. One restaurant is called McDonald's Hamburgers. The other is Ruth's Steak House.

It should be clear to all that what cost more is not relevant when you factor in your desired result.  It is only relevant if you pay more for it than from another outlet.

I'm not going to take this any further as there are just to many variables to discuss. I will tell you this. That once investment is made in my type of organic gardening within 3-5 years you will break even with chemical growing.

However, on the other hand think about this: We as a people are now living not only longer than anyone else in history... we are healthier. This is an apologia that one would have a hard time defeating.  Your beef, my beef, your tomato, my tomato, it is only important when you factor in your desired result. A desired result that another person may not look upon favorably.

Olds

[manxman]

as there are just to many variables to discuss.

You are right there Olds, permutations are almost infinite!

I would perhaps argue somewhat with regards the healthier bit. Yes, people are living longer but not necessarily healthier or have a healthier lifestyle. One of the main factors is that medical science can prolong life much more efficiently. Clog up your arteries with cholesterol...... no problem, have bypass surgery!! Obesity...... no problem, have your stomach stapled and liposuction. Drink you liver into a cirrhotic mass..... no problem, whip it out and put another in! If that all sounds a bit glib then I am sorry, I work in a hospital and have a "gallows" sense of humour! There are so many people that are in control of their own destiny and waste that precious commodity of life. :-[

On the other hand mercifully many cancer patients typically live much longer, many illnesses that were a death sentence only a few years ago are now not only treatable but curable and that is  all down to medical science. Leukaemia is one such example.

However, several reports appearing in the UK say that because of the obesity problem in children and increasingly sedentary lifestyle many parents will outlive their children. Alarmist perhaps but does give food for thought.

I personnally think the general health of the younger population is worse than a generation ago and that will become more apparent in years to come, many children nowadays never get the chance to walk to school, never mind do hard physical exercise.

In the UK they currently spend just less than £0.60/$1 per child per day on school dinners, that is significantly less than the murderers, rapists and other criminals dinner allowance in UK prisons!! That is a statistic this country should be ashamed of, there is something wrong somewhere!

Interesting subject..........

[maxon8]

I would like to thank you for all your replies and comments. The discussion has expanded into many unexpected directions and the intellect applied has been considerable, it has even got me confused!. Each and every comment is relevant and the potential variables built upon these views are many.

We have gone from “Beef?” right up through a thought process touching on political. Heavy!.

There is one common link between everything, I would like to remove this common link as I believe this is where the problem lies. At first this might well put me in the “nutty section”, however I would be interested in reading your views, I just might have a point.

What would happen if the world economy of money stopped, no more money. You might well laugh but if it were then to evolve into a barter system what would happen?. Do not forget the money system evolved from bartering so why not  go back there.

I realise this takes things to a very hypothetical level. I believe that the monetary system as a mathematical formula has created an unstoppable self perpetuating mechanism that only survives on total inefficiency in order to keep itself alive and that interference at every level helps the formula of profit and loss to always be in an infinite conflict for the simple reason that all monetary transaction have three main  components, the buyer, the seller and the money accountability. Bartering only has two, I am sure the beef would be better and life in general more realistic. Think about it!.

maxon8

[manxman]

What would happen if the world economy of money stopped, no more money.

Wow, now it really is getting heavy!! ;)

On a small scale I barter regularly, smoked food for steak, seafood for wine etc and it works very well and in essence you get and "pay" for items what both parties feel is a fair amount.

If I arrange to swap some lobster for steak and someone takes the mickey and gives me a scrawny rib eye steak the size of a postage stamp for a couple of lobsters I don't deal with him again. Easy because I get to choose who I barter with!

Apply this on a global scale........... you don't get to choose  who you have to deal with,  the world would still be full of the haves and have nots, the greedy and the not greedy, the powerful and the weak. The same nations who have money would be in the strongest position to barter, the weakest nations who have nothing to barter still reliant on scraps from the rich nations.

Powerful people would still be on the fiddle, politicians would still play politics with peoples lives and from a practical point of view bartering on the internet would be interesting!! Bartering is from an era when most business was done locally with someone you knew, not even just within the boundaries of a country, but within a county/state, a town or a village. I can't see how it would work on a global scale?

If we evolved into a barter system for whatever reason I just feel the rich and the powerful would soon engineer it to suite their own needs just the same and it would probably evolve back into a monetary system pretty quickly, because that is the easiest way for the rich and powerful to become more rich and powerful, be it individuals or nations.

No simple answers unfortunately!

[maxon8]

manxman,

Interesting reply and I agree with you.

The one point that I hoped someone would make and you have is; “Bartering is from an era when most business was done locally with someone you knew, not even just within the boundaries of a country, but within a county/state, a town or a village”. I believe that if the very real problem of energy shortages starts to bite then inevitably the cost of living will continue to increase, this is a problem that is starting to raise its head in Europe. The result being that people might just start to review the way in which they live in turn sourcing produce on a local level in turn supporting local business and hopefully organic farms. 

Like you I can only see bartering continuing to happen within a local village type community and that might well increase as the monetary system is challenged by ever increasing environmental factors, the most challenging being water shortage. If one sells / barters locally grown produce within ones own community you have the advantage of keeping the water that is contained within unlike a product that is sold outside the area from which it is grown.

I think it is time to draw the post “Beef?” to a close before we become unpopular; maybe it has already happened!.

maxon8

[asa]

I think it is time to draw the post "Beef?" to a close before we become unpopular; maybe it has already happened!.
maxon8

Naw. No problemo. Although I think I may have heard a voice say "where's the beef?" - but don't let it worry you - chew on.

[Habanero Smoker]

Maxon8;
Although I have not contributed much to this thread I enjoy reading it.

[manxman]

think it is time to draw the post "Beef?" to a close before we become unpopular; maybe it has already happened!.

Would'nt worry about that maxon8, if you look at the number of "reads" it seems to have attracted a fair bit of attention and interest.

To me the read rate is often more indicative of interest rather than reply rate whether people agree of disagree, at least it may have provoked some off line thought and discussions. Strangely enough i have been away on business for a couple of days visiting a hospital in South Wales and one of the main topics of discussion, not initiated by me, was this very subject.

Now back to beef, I have about 6lb of fillet steak bits, the offcuts from when the local butcher was cutting up his fillet steaks which I bartered for through a friend of a friend.

The question is....... what to do with them? Fajitas, casserole, steak and guinness pie? Ideas anyone?! ???

[Habanero Smoker]

I believe there is a great deal of interest in this subject. I can't believe that the area that I live in is so unique. The other day I was listening to an interview of an author named Michael Pollen who wrote "The Omnivore's Dilemma : A Natural History of Four Meals". He addresses some of the issues that were discussed in this thread. People wanting to change their eating habits, but points out the difficulties in achieving that. I might just order this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594200823/103-9677598-3797424?v=glance&n=283155 ; along with the book Manxman recommended some time ago.

think it is time to draw the post “Beef?” to a close before we become unpopular; maybe it has already happened!.

Now back to beef, I have about 6lb of fillet steak bits, the offcuts from when the local butcher was cutting up his fillet steaks which I bartered for through a friend of a friend.

The question is....... what to do with them? Fajitas, casserole, steak and guinness pie? Ideas anyone?! ???

If it were me; all of the above.

[manxman]

People wanting to change their eating habits, but points out the difficulties in achieving that.

That's a very good point HS.

The book I mentioned in this instance was The River Cottage Meat Book:

http://www.rivercottage.net/rcv2/shop/books.jsp?shop=bookRc&filter=hugh

and scroll down a little way.

Also see:

www.rivercottage.net

for more information. I think JJC went and bought it soon afterwards on Amazon and I seem to remember he was highly impressed with it.

[iceman]

People wanting to change their eating habits, but points out the difficulties in achieving that.

That's a very good point HS.

The book I mentioned in this instance was The River Cottage Meat Book:

http://www.rivercottage.net/rcv2/shop/books.jsp?shop=bookRc&filter=hugh

and scroll down a little way.

Also see:

www.rivercottage.net

for more information. I think JJC went and bought it soon afterwards on Amazon and I seem to remember he was highly impressed with it.

Good info Manx. Thanks for the threads. Another one that was kind of interesting was the "History of Food". It tells of the swings man has made over centuries on eating habits. I'll find the author when I can.