Pork Should Questions Part Deux

[st3v32k12]

I'm learning, but it's still not where I want it to be...

I bought a small 3.3lbs bone in pork shoulder and marinated overnight in a dry rub.  Put it in a 230F smoker at 8:00AM and by 5:00PM it had reached an IT of 187F.  Smoking time of 4 hours.    I also changed the water during the smoking time twice, which I am starting to suspect is a mistake.  Took it out to FTC it but an impatient family made me de-FTC and server after only 30 minutes.  I believe this was the primary it was not as juicy as it could be..

So my questions are:

1.  Should I leave the door closed for the entire smoking time? I'm worried about that little bowl overflowing.
2.  Should I replace the small bowl with something bigger?
3.  What is the recommend IT to bring a pork shoulder to before taking it out (either to rest or to FTC)?
4.  If I am FTC'ing, what is the minimum FTC time recommended?
5.  Can a juicy, fall apart pork shoulder be achieved without FTC?
6.  To spray or not to spray (and what do you spray)?

I want my pulled pork to be so good, that people will think the God of Pigs Himself has come down from Pig Heaven and slapped them in the mouth - with flavor.  So with that in mind, if anyone has any addition tips please let me know.

Thanks in advance!!

[Grouperman941]

I'm learning, but it's still not where I want it to be...

I bought a small 3.3lbs bone in pork shoulder and marinated overnight in a dry rub.  Put it in a 230F smoker at 8:00AM and by 5:00PM it had reached an IT of 187F.  Smoking time of 4 hours.    I also changed the water during the smoking time twice, which I am starting to suspect is a mistake.  Took it out to FTC it but an impatient family made me de-FTC and server after only 30 minutes.  I believe this was the primary it was not as juicy as it could be..

So my questions are:

1.  Should I leave the door closed for the entire smoking time? I'm worried about that little bowl overflowing.
2.  Should I replace the small bowl with something bigger?
3.  What is the recommend IT to bring a pork shoulder to before taking it out (either to rest or to FTC)?
4.  If I am FTC'ing, what is the minimum FTC time recommended?
5.  Can a juicy, fall apart pork shoulder be achieved without FTC?
6.  To spray or not to spray (and what do you spray)?

I want my pulled pork to be so good, that people will think the God of Pigs Himself has come down from Pig Heaven and slapped them in the mouth - with flavor.  So with that in mind, if anyone has any addition tips please let me know.

Thanks in advance!!

For IT, I shoot for 195F. Sometimes it does not make it. If the temp stalls after 180, I fork test -- just stick a fork in a thick part and twist. If it twists easily, it's probably done. It should not hurt to go longer, but if you take it out too early, it may be tough. Some pigs are just more tender than others, BTW. It's a good idea to move the probe around and check temps in another spot or two to make sure you are not in a hot spot.

In my experience, 230F is high for a butt. It will make the bark thicker and harder than I like. I preheat to 225 and am happy if it stays over 200 for most of the cook. Every time you open the door, you lose heat and the unit needs to recover. A few times shouldn't hurt a pork butt.

Water in the bowl shouldn't help or hurt moisture in a pork butt. It prevents the pucks from catching fire. Some people add flavors like juice or soda once the smoke is done. I don't, so not sure on that.

Spraying helps with flavor, but I don't think it will keep the meat moist inside.

FTC is not necessary. It does allow for heat and moisture to redistribute, and it can keep the meat hot for a long time. The same thing happens, but not as well, by letting the meat cool tented on the counter, which is what I have been doing lately. I pull when it's cool enough to handle.

[tskeeter]

Is your concern that the pulled pork did not look juicy, or that it seemed dry in your mouth?  I ask this question because I gave some pulled pork to a friend to try.  He commented that it looked dry, but when he ate it, it had a nice, juicy mouth feel.  I suspect that the juicy mouth feel might come from the collagen that melted into the pork as it cooked.  And that the collagen doesn't appear to be juicy, like when you cut a steak or a roast.

In respect to flavor, you might experiment with some different rubs. Or adjust the rub your used a bit.  If you want to make the rub a little hotter, add some Cayenne pepper.  For a more spicy flavor, increase the black pepper.  Or use a coarse ground black pepper, which will provide "hits" of spice when you bite into it.  My rub of choice for pulled pork is a very heavy application of Jan's Rub.  See the attached link for the recipe and for other smoked food ideas.   http://www.susanminor.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?180-Our-Time-Tested-and-Proven-Recipes

Another option is to squirt some vinegar based finishing sauce on your pork before serving, to add a bit of tang to your pork.  The sauce I use contains vinegar, brown sugar, black pepper, Tony Chachere's, and red pepper flakes, if I remember everything correctly.  It doesn't take a lot of finishing sauce.  The recipe I use calls for 1/2 cup for 10 pounds of meat.

I replace my puck bowl with a large aluminum pan when I do pulled pork.  The reason I do this is that I usually smoke a couple of 7 - 8 pound pork shoulders over night.  The bigger pan will accept 4 hours worth of burned pucks, so I don't have to get up and empty the puck bowl in the wee hours of the morning.

[KyNola]

First question, what are you using to gauge the temp of the meat and the temp of the tower?  Secondly, each and every time you open the door to do anything, change the water bowl, spray the butt, etc you are losing a huge amount of your cooking heat and it can take a long time for the Bradley to come back up to temp, particularly during the early stages of the smoke/cook where the meat is cold and acting as a heat sink.

I don't spray with anything because I don't find it necessary.  The 230 temp does not bother me at all.  I've seen butts cooked at 275 and up come out delicious.  If you are a little nervous about the water pan, get you a 9X9(9X13 is better) aluminum pan and replace your water bowl with that.  After the initial 4 hour period, dump the bowl and refill.  That will prevent you from fanning the door to check the bowl.

While FTC is not absolutely necessary I find it advantageous for a period of time to allow the juices to redistribute themselves throughout the meat.  In addition, it is a good way to hold meat warm if you are finished early.

Finally and probably the most important, the most critical part of the whole thing is the pig itself.  It's all up to the pig.  I have never had two butts react exactly the same no matter what.  For my taste, your IT of 178 is a little low. I prefer 190-195.  Others prefer a IT closer to where you were.

[TedEbear]

I want my pulled pork to be so good, that people will think the God of Pigs Himself has come down from Pig Heaven and slapped them in the mouth - with flavor.  So with that in mind, if anyone has any addition tips please let me know.

For several years I smoked butts at a chamber temp of 225.  The last few I tried cooking at 210 the whole time and they turned out noticeably more moist and tender. I'm doing them at that temp from now on.  WHen the IT reaches 190 I start checking every 5 degrees with the fork twist test. They're always done by either 190 or 195.  The lower chamber temp means it will take longer to cook.  I've had an 8 lb butt take 21 hours but the longer wait was worth it.

On the water bowl, I replaced it with a 9x13 aluminum pan.  It holds a lot more pucks and I only dump it out after the initial smoke session.  I do 3 hours of smoke on mine.

[Habanero Smoker]

Changing the water bowl twice during your cook would be average, and during that time you can spritz the meat. I use the stock bowl that came with my smoker. Though I do have a dual element mod, I also used the stock bowl for about 4 years prior to adding the second element, and changed the water in the water bowl using the same schedule. You will loose heat, but it is better then running with a dry bowl or a bowl full of grease.

When you take any meat past 165°F, it is going to be over cooked and dry. As tskeeter mentioned, when a tough cut of meat is cooked correctly the collagen converts to gelatin and this gelatin coats the meat fibers, giving you a sense (feeling that it is moist). If you want to have it juicy, and maintain the taste of the meat, you can add low sodium chicken broth.

I use both meat temperature, and the fork test to determine when my butts are done. I cook my butts at 200°F. It doesn't matter if I use my Bradley or charcoal burner. Cooking them at this temperature I find that they easily pulls at an internal temperature around 175°F, the meat is more firmer (I don't like it when the pork starts to get mushy); and the collagen has been converted to gelatin. Cooking at a higher temperature you do need to take them to a higher internal temperature. When taking butts to 175°F, it is best to trim the fat cap to about 1/8", and when you pull there will be pockets of fat that will need to be discarded.

I cook my butts a day in advance, then tightly foil with some apple juice or low sodium chicken broth, and allow it to rest until it is cool enough to pull. Place the butt in a roasting pan when you pull it, and you will not loose any juices that may run off. I never FTC. I then reheat the day I plan to serve, this give the flavors time to meld throughout.

[Wildcat]

Changing the water bowl twice during your cook would be average, and during that time you can spritz the meat. I use the stock bowl that came with my smoker. Though I do have a dual element mod, I also used the stock bowl for about 4 years prior to adding the second element, and changed the water in the water bowl using the same schedule. You will loose heat, but it is better then running with a dry bowl or a bowl full of grease.

When you take any meat past 165°F, it is going to be over cooked and dry. As tskeeter mentioned, when a tough cut of meat is cooked correctly the collagen converts to gelatin and this gelatin coats the meat fibers, giving you a sense (feeling that it is moist). If you want to have it juicy, and maintain the taste of the meat, you can add low sodium chicken broth.

I use both meat temperature, and the fork test to determine when my butts are done. I cook my butts at 200°F. It doesn't matter if I use my Bradley or charcoal burner. Cooking them at this temperature I find that they easily pulls at an internal temperature around 175°F, the meat is more firmer (I don't like it when the pork starts to get mushy); and the collagen has been converted to gelatin. Cooking at a higher temperature you do need to take them to a higher internal temperature. When taking butts to 175°F, it is best to trim the fat cap to about 1/8", and when you pull there will be pockets of fat that will need to be discarded.

I cook my butts a day in advance, then tightly foil with some apple juice or low sodium chicken broth, and allow it to rest until it is cool enough to pull. Place the butt in a roasting pan when you pull it, and you will not loose any juices that may run off. I never FTC. I then reheat the day I plan to serve, this give the flavors time to meld throughout.

Ditto. I read Habs method several years ago on here and have been doing it this way all since with perfect results every time. The only things I do different is I cook at an average of 205 and take away a little more of the fat. I do not mind it being a little mushy so sometimes I go a little higher than 175 but I always go with the fork test.

[KyNola]

When you take any meat past 165°F, it is going to be over cooked and dry.

Wait.........what?

[TedEbear]

Wait.........what?

I was wondering about that, too.  My 190-195*F butts are tender and juicy.  165 usually is right in the middle of the stall when the magic happens.

[Grouperman941]

Wait.........what?

I was wondering about that, too.  My 190-195*F butts are tender and juicy.  165 usually is right in the middle of the stall when the magic happens.

But if you were to take it out and slice it up before the magic was done happening, you would have dry pork.

[tailfeathers]

The two butts I did last weekend were at a lower temp than I had ever used before. I preheated to 230 and lowered the temp to 205 when I put the butts in (8.8# each). They took nearly 24 hours and passed the fork test between 175 and 180. FTC'd for 2 hours, put them in a roasting pan to open the foil and pull them so as not to lose any juice. Did the "rough pull" into chunks with claws then finished pulling by hand and I would say they were my best yet. (I did raise the temp to 225 for perhaps the last 30-45 minutes because I wanted to get a pastrami started).

[Wildcat]

Not sure what Habs was trying to say regarding the dry thing but his method of doing pulled pork is great. Using his method, if I take my butt(s) to 190 to 195, I have difficulty picking it up to place in a pan for resting. The butt(s) have a tendency to literally fall apart when picking it up.

With all that being said, I see nothing wrong with cooking at much higher temps. They still seem to turn out great but they also require a higher finish temp and possibly the FTC might be needed with the higher temps.

[Caneyscud]

At 165 the meat is cooked - lots of things have happened inside the meat, but essentially the proteins have unwound and the muscle fibers and collagen has shrunk, wringing the juices out.  If there is much fat, the fat has already started rendering (melting) so if you slice at 165, it might not feel dry to the mouth because of the rendering fat.  If little fat is present - it will be dry.  Cooking meat is a balancing act - especially low-n-slow.  The meat is cooked and "safe" but you want more of the collagen to be rendered to gelatin (think aspic).  Collagen is the toughness in a tough cut of meat.  You want to render up enough collagen for the muscle fibers to separate easily (being tender - sorta) but retaining enough gelatin for moistness - or rather the mouthfeel of moistness.  You also don't want to render out all the fat before that the proper amount of collagen has been converted and "tenderness" achieved.  The lower temps will (however only slight) have an effect on the speed of which the muscle fibers and collagen contracts.  What they do do is to slow down the rendering of fat and collagen and may not drive out moisture as fast from the surface of the meat.  In other words you are not overcooking the outside of the meat as quickly.  That may contribute to the overall feeling of moistness in a pulled product.  You can successfully cook tough cuts of meat at much higher temps if you know the technique, but you can also cook at too high of a temp and totally dry out the meat before the collagen is rendered - that is a disaster.    Personally, if I got a far superior product by cooking at 200, I'd do it in a moment and wait 24 hours for my butt.  But, in my opinion, I have not experienced all that greater of a product to warrant the extra time - so I often cook at a higher cabinet temp than most. 

[Caneyscud]

As far as the original questions

So my questions are:

1.  Should I leave the door closed for the entire smoking time? I'm worried about that little bowl overflowing.
            as already said leave closed as much as you can especially at the beginning of the smoke.  Its ok, just will make the cook take longer

2.  Should I replace the small bowl with something bigger?
            I've used the original for years, but bigger wouldn't be bad.

3.  What is the recommend IT to bring a pork shoulder to before taking it out (either to rest or to FTC)?
             depends if you are slicing, chopping, or pulling.  You probably want pulled, then the 190 to 195 for either resting or FTC.

4.  If I am FTC'ing, what is the minimum FTC time recommended?
              There really is not a minimum - if just continues the cooking temps for a little longer, but at 190 to 195 if already low n slow, not a necessity -   
              your butt will be pullable - probably.

5.  Can a juicy, fall apart pork shoulder be achieved without FTC?
               Definitely

6.  To spray or not to spray (and what do you spray)?
               I also don't spray.  Most things people spray, I don't want that taste.  I do mop, but not usually with a butt. 

I have a feeling your problem was probably with the size of roast.  3.5 lbs is pretty small.  That small will easily dry out.  Most butts that we are talking about smoking are in the 7+ lb range.    Far easier to smoke - but they do take longer.  I usually figure on 1.5 to 2 hours per pound, plan to finish at least 2 hours before serving and when done throw it in a cooler (naked - no f or t) to keep warm. 

[Tenpoint5]

So what I am getting here is everything that has been talked about on this forum for years. Information that has been passed on to countless individuals with great results. All this information is WRONG?? Any meat that is cooked over 165 IT is over cooked and dry?? So all of these KCBS events that I participate in or attend and the teams takes their IT up to 205 even 210, and serve extremely moist and delicious meat. I am to understand these guys and Gals are all WRONG, and ONE persons opinion on how he does it is THE RIGHT WAY to do it. I am thinking not so much.