Pork Should Questions Part Deux

[TedEbear]

I have a feeling we will be getting a rebuttal on all this sometime later tonight.   ;D

[Habanero Smoker]

Looks like I've missed a conversation last evening. :)

It is the "magic" that gives the meat a sensation of being succulent, when it is cooked properly, past 165°F. As Caneyscud has pointed out a lot goes on at different stages when proteins are cooked, and it is good to know the science of what is going on. Where I differ from him is that I do not consider gelatin a moisture nor any remaining fat when I am referring to the meat. By the time the meat hits 165°F, the protein cells have contracted so much that almost all the moisture is squeezed out, making the meat dry. It is the gelatin that gives the sense on moistness. If no one has any of Harold McGee's books, read the following link, and also study the side bar "What Happens When You Cook?". Though some of the temperatures they give may be a little different than Harold McGhee's temperatures.
Basic Meat Science For Outdoor Cooks

10.5
I've judge more the 57 KCBS events, over 10 BBQ Brethren events, countless backyard events, and assisted a few times during competitions. When it comes to the pork category for the KCBS and Brethren competitions, almost everyone injects and adds some kind of moisture prior to handing in their box. There have only been a few of entries that came to my table that were not injected or added moisture, and most of those entries those cooks nailed it, by cooking it properly and the collagen was converted to gelatin; coating the meat fibers. Read my reply again, and you will see that I mentioned the higher cabinet temperature, the higher you have to take your internal temperature. Those cooks at competition are generally cooking at 250°F or higher. Also there are more then one way to get something accomplished correctly. I'm judging a competition this Sunday. It's been awhile since I've spoken with the cooks on how high they take the pork too. About three years ago the average temperature was 190°F - 195°F; taking the meat too high will make it mushy. But over the years, I have seen techniques and methods change, especially the way ribs are cooked, so it will be interesting to see what internal temperatures and cooking temperature are now the norm.

[BAM1]

Which is it, 165, 195...  I'm glad I know what I'm doing because if I was a newbie here looking for advice I'd be totally confused.  I don't know about New York style cooking but it appears to be way different than what we do here in the Heartland.  After judging the last two American Royals and talking with high scoring teams I can assure you they are cooking way past 165. 

[TedEbear]

I've been watching a lot of the BBQ Pitmasters competitions on Destination America this spring.  I'm pretty sure they take the IT to at least 190 on butts.  In their quest for the $50,000 grand prize they want everything to come out perfect.

[Tenpoint5]

That's kinda the point I was getting at. Hey it's great that you have judged all them events, and you KNOW that the competitors run their IT up to 190-195. I DO understand the concept that the higher temp you cook at the higher the IT you need to bring the meat to. What I have a problem with is your coming out of nowhere with this comment of "When you take any meat past 165°F, it is going to be over cooked and dry". For years we have been telling folks to make pulled pork you want to cook at 225 degrees until an it of 190-195. Maybe even 185. Now this 165 crap is thrown into the mix, because somebody read it in a book.

What does that do? How big of a deal is it? On the surface nothing. Now if you look at the big picture. We have people who are coming to this forum for help and information. They see this post because it is new and towards the top. They see that "When you take any meat past 165°F, it is going to be over cooked and dry" comment. They don't want their pulled pork overcooked and dry. So they pull it at 160. Then they are coming back to the forum complaining that their Bradley smoker is a piece of junk, cause they made pulled pork following the directions off the forum. The meat was tough and wouldn't pull apart at all. At which point the whole you need to modify the smoker crowd gets all fired up and on their soap box. Saying how if you add an element everything will be so much better.

It's these kind of comments that create so much confusion on the forum. Then when someone else comes along to try and help out by giving tried and true advice. Such as the 255 till 195 issue. They are being told they are wrong or made to look like fools for trying to help with some link to how to do this or how to do that. Generally it is a link to something you have posted. After having this done to them enough times. People just say the hell with it and stop posting or trying to help people, or they just leave the forum. Being on more than one forum I hear of this often. Just about all the conversations end with " I left or stopped posting because I got tired of being told I was wrong"

So if your going to be putting information out there. Keep it consistent and keep it Black and White. People that don't know what they are doing are more comfortable and build more self confidence in their abilities. If we are giving them plain and simple black and white instructions of how to make the most out of their smoker. With as much pleasure and ease as possible.

[NePaSmoKer]

I found it not being of any benefit to say anything on the forum as there is only 1 person on the forum who is right 99.99% of the time.

[Wildcat]

Interesting to read the apparent science behind it all. I think we can all agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I know that the two basic methods on here work. For me the lower temp method turns out just a smidgen better. I go with the higher temp methods when I have less time.

I think Habs was just trying to explain the science behind it for those who wished to know. This is not really worth anger and possibly loosing more friends over. Also, I think the general public on here (be it experienced or inexperienced people) should be exposed to not only different recipes and spices, but the different methods as well. IMHO this inspires creativity.

[Habanero Smoker]

10.5;

My mentioning things that I know of, is no different then anyone mentioning their knowledge, weather it be from a person reading a forum, or pasting information from another forum, or from a book. My comment is not out of nowhere and I have brought that up a few times in the past, maybe before you joined, mentioning that it is the gelatin coating that gives you the sense of moisture. The 165°F is good for slicing, but I never stated it was for pulling, though meat does become dry when you cook it beyond 165°F, you should read the rest of my statement, and not the truncated post by Kynola; where I goes onto saying "... when a tough cut of meat is cooked correctly the collagen converts to gelatin and this gelatin coats the meat fibers, giving you a sense (feeling that it is moist)". The purpose of me mentioning why meat, when cooked past 165°F will become dry, is a response to st3v32k12 mentioning his pork was dry. I don't see how this is interpreted as taking it out of the cooker, when it hits 165°F; unless one wants to create a "I gotcha" moment. And in the next paragraph I mention I take mine to 175°F.

You underestimate, and make a lot of assumptions on the membership of the forum, and they would have difficulty comprehending my post. Also there is a large group of members who just monitor, and have not contributed may want to learn more about what is going on during their cook.

You make the statements "We have people who are coming to this forum for help and information."; and "It's these kind of comments that create so much confusion on the forum." I remember you making very similar statements to  Pachanga, because he mention a different way to cook a brisket that you didn't agree with. Today many refer to his technique of smoke/cooking a brisket. This forum is for discussion, not just to follow one person's way of how things should be done, or what information is valuable, or what will cause confusion. 

[tailfeathers]

Lets all get back to playing nice!!!

[Tenpoint5]

This forum is for discussion, not just to follow one person's way of how things should be done, or what information is valuable, or what will cause confusion.

That is exactly what I am trying to say. I know it's not me pushing my way of doing things.

[Habanero Smoker]

This forum is for discussion, not just to follow one person's way of how things should be done, or what information is valuable, or what will cause confusion.

That is exactly what I am trying to say. I know it's not me pushing my way of doing things.

We have different opinions on what is going on, and from different perspectives. So I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[KyNola]

It would appear that all sides have had an opportunity to state their cases and rebuttals on this matter.  It is quickly degenerating to a personal affront of various members of the Forum.  Therefore, I am using my powers of truncation for the second time in this thread and lock it.