Trying Pork again.

[TomG]

Is meat susceptible to the 40-140 nasties while it's being smoked?

Just found the expert's answer to that very question ;D ;D

I just read the section of Smoked Meats in Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking; The Science and Lore of the Kitchen." He basically states that smoking preserves the surface of the meat, and kills or inhibits the growth of microbes (bacteria).  During cold smoking, smoke vapors are deposited on the surface of meat, as much as seven times faster then when you are hot smoking.

In my opinion, if you handle the meat properly prior to smoking, I would think you could cold smoke without curing first, and not have to worry about bacteria. As Big Red states it will depend on how long you cold smoke. Myself, I would limit it to four hours. I generally don't apply smoke beyond four hours anyway.

[heinz]

Phew :)
Thanks for the extra info Tom and Habanero Smoker.

I'm close to the 9 hour mark after turning heat on and my internal temps are 145 for the lower and 139 for the higher rack. Think I may be cutting it too close so have increased temp preset to 220 from 210. Doing AJ every 2-3 hours and have some bacon dripping from the top rack (turned upside down to make room for the butt).

I have about 8 hours to pull-time. May not have time for FTC. If not it'll have to do with a little rest period.

[icerat4]

The fat side of the butt should always stay on top.So the fat keeps the butt wet.No bacon ever needed the fat will do the job just fine with no problems.Plus the apple juice breaks down the fat and melts it nicely when applyed. ;).Never have the fat side down.The fat needs to melt over the butt.

[heinz]

Unfortunately mine don't have much fat. Haven't been able to get a good/whole shoulder yet. Been making do with the de-boned wrapped (with string) variety.

I did turn them for a while to get some AJ all over.

If the smell is any indication we may have a good smoke yet.

It's driving me nuts, I have the pork going in the gazebo/smoker and finishing a previously smoked/frozen brisket in the oven right next to my home office.

I'm planning to pull one butt at about 175-180 and FTC it. That one will be for slicing. If I can survive that long.

[icerat4]

Where do u live. If you have a sams club they have boston butt 1.34 per lbs.Very nice too ya get two in a cryo vac pack. ive done them and there really good and nice fatty layer on top to boot.

[heinz]

Langley, BC (close to Vancouver).

No Sam's but I'll check Costco again next time there. Their ribs were good.

[icerat4]

If they dont have it in the show case ask one of the monkeys in the back they should be able to help ya out. ;D

[mattmilw]

I am following this thread with great interest. I too am finding I am not getting the level of smoked flavoring that I'm looking for. The overall  flavor and texture of the meat is wonderful, but I would like a more pronounced smoke flavor. I've only done a few butts and a brisket in my BS, so I haven't had too much chance to try different techniques.  I've also not tried oak or mesquite yet, mostly just hickory.

What a great problem to have.....making great tasting BBQ that I need to keep experimenting with to make better.  It's a fun process.

Thanks,
Matt

[Habanero Smoker]

Smoke is an antimicrobial, as I have posted in the past. But it displays different antimicrobial  properties against different microorganisms. My concern would be the length of time the meat is in an oxygen poor environment. I have never seen any studies on the effects of smoke on the properties of botulism, so I am not certain how smoke effects that microorganism. Maybe Manxman can shed further light on this.

[TomG]

Here's what the CDC has to say about botulism.  It looks as if smoked meats are not a likely source of infection.



What kind of germ is Clostridium botulinum?

Clostridium botulinum is the name of a group of bacteria commonly found in soil. These rod-shaped organisms grow best in low oxygen conditions. The bacteria form spores which allow them to survive in a dormant state until exposed to conditions that can support their growth. There are seven types of botulism toxin designated by the letters A through G; only types A, B, E and F cause illness in humans.

How common is botulism?

In the United States an average of 110 cases of botulism are reported each year. Of these, approximately 25% are foodborne, 72% are infant botulism, and the rest are wound botulism. Outbreaks of foodborne botulism involving two or more persons occur most years and usually caused by eating contaminated home-canned foods. The number of cases of foodborne and infant botulism has changed little in recent years, but wound botulism has increased because of the use of black-tar heroin, especially in California.

How can botulism be prevented?

Botulism can be prevented. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn. However, outbreaks of botulism from more unusual sources such as chopped garlic in oil, chile peppers, tomatoes, improperly handled baked potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil, and home-canned or fermented fish. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Instructions on safe home canning can be obtained from county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Because honey can contain spores of Clostridium botulinum and this has been a source of infection for infants, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs.

[Habanero Smoker]

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I know about botulism, and did not mean to give the impression that smoked meat is a source. But having said that, I took a course in sausage making, and the chief was adamant that smoking uncured sausage you risk botulism contamination. What I am saying if spores get on the meat or in the smoker, what you are doing is creating the optimum environment in the cabinet for that bacteria to grow, low oxygen levels and temperatures that will be in the danger zone for too long. Though smoke contains antimicrobial elements, the effects are different for each bacteria. Still I have not seen an article that goes into the antimicrobial properties smoke has on botulism as to whether smoke will inhibit the bacteria to grow, so this would still be my concern.

My concerns my be not viable. Hopefully Manxman will see this thread and he will add to the discussion.

[TomG]

I took a course in sausage making, and the chief was adamant that smoking uncured sausage you risk botulism contamination.

Hab, my point is that we all bring to the table concepts which may or may not be valid and someone new to the Forum looking for information from experienced members are receiving, taking away and perpetuating  misconceptions that have no rational legitimacy. Example: I would give much more credence to your Harold McGee reference than I would to what a chief in a sausage making course had to say about botulism when according to the CDC there only 25 cases of food born botulism reported in the US/yr and apparently none of them due to homemade sausages. :)

[Habanero Smoker]

I was in a hurry so I made a mistake it's not chief, but chef (a problem with spell checkers). It was a course I took for the Culinary Institute of America, from a chef that had over 30 years experience of sausage making. I would consider him a very good source.

Before making statements that I am perpetuating misconceptions, because you read one article; do a simple search on smoking suasage. I could continue but I end this now.

[icerat4]

Thank you both tom and habs.Points well taken on both sides can we move on.Very informative and helpful.Thank you both again.have a great day .AND HAPPY SMOKING  ;D

[heinz]

And on a lighter note.... my smoke survived but I had to make some adjustments during the last few hours.

I took my 2 slicers out at 175 degrees and cranked up the heat to 250 for the next few hours but still didn't make it past 185. I FTC'd one of the slicers and one of the pullers while we stuffed ourselves.

After the company left I pulled the one I took out at 185 with ease. I pulled the slicer too but it was kinda in-between, not firm enough to be a slicer anymore and a little more trouble pulling.

All in all it was good.
Lessons learned: 1) start earlier, 2) start even earlier. 3) Use a temp pre-set of 220 instead of 210. Not sure if I'll cold-smoke again the next time.

Left-overs vacuum sealed and in the freezer. Going to chop up some of the bark for lunch today.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions.