bubbagumps custom PID

bubbagump · February 14, 2006, 11:34:11 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nodak
 Just received My PID today. Couldn't keep my hands off of it and I quickly started looking at it and noticed they call for a fuse, is this necessary???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I emailed their tech support (Suyi) with the same question and included a drawing showing the location in the circuit of the existing fuse. He said the existing fuse was sufficient.

If there is ever a need to replace the fuse be sure to replace it with the same type and size.

Bubbagump

nodak · February 14, 2006, 11:51:04 PM

Thanks bubbagump. I am going to put my PID in a project box and get a 10ft thermocoupler so I can leave my PID in the garage and BS outside when smoking in winter in ND. So should I put a fuse in my project box??? If so, can I get it at radioshack and what kind?

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."

gary_CO · February 15, 2006, 01:31:42 AM

The manual I have suggests a 250v, 1 amp, slow-blowing fuse. I have seen those at HomeDepot... Never looked at RadioShack, but they'll certainly have a fuse holder...

just thought I'd jump in :)

bubbagump · February 15, 2006, 02:08:42 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nodak
 Thanks bubbagump. I am going to put my PID in a project box and get a 10ft thermocoupler so I can leave my PID in the garage and BS outside when smoking in winter in ND. So should I put a fuse in my project box??? If so, can I get it at radioshack and what kind?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
nodak - Are you plugging your box into the back of the smoke generator or a separate outlet?

Bubbagump

TomG · February 15, 2006, 03:11:14 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Nodak asked: Tomg is there any reason in particular you chose the J type instead of the K type thermocoupler that everyone else seems to be using?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nodak, the link was just the first eBay post I found. Bill can supply almost any TC type.

nodak · February 15, 2006, 03:16:00 AM

Was thinking seperate outlet. Now that you mention it I guess I could go to the back of the generater, than I wouldn't need a fuse. Never even crossed my mind as an option.

When I get time I'm going to put a switch in for my biscuit advance motor, to save a little wear.

I'm going to try to make time to work on a wiring diagram for the PID. But I'm going to run it by you just so my wife doesn't collect on my life insurance plan early.

Thanks,
MIKE

"If you're not living on the edge, You're taking up way too much room, so get the he-- out of my way."

ChefBill · February 15, 2006, 01:24:24 PM

THOUGHT: As you know we almost always run the BS rheostat on high when using a Raptor/Guru or a PID. Looking at gary_co's wiring diagram I just thought of something.
WHAT IF: You placed a Single Pole Double Throw Switch between the fuse (brown dashed line) and wired one side straight to the receptacle on the rear of the smoke generator, The other would feed the SSR.
This way, when it was in one position it would feed the tower just like the OEM wiring and still let you see the temp that the PID was seeing but without the PID being in control.
This would let you set the temperature you wanted on the PID ( for the first smoking step) and still do a fast Pre-Heat to a higher temp than the PID is set for.
Then when you load the BS up and flip the switch to PID to control what you want your smoke temperature to be. As we all know, Once we open the door and load the BS, the Temperature is going to fall into the basement for a period of time. This would help overcome this problem.

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.

Roadkill · February 15, 2006, 04:28:38 PM

Okay guys,,as I stated the other day,I'm electrically challenged.I stumbled onto this hot topic,and from the first post,was lost as to what these add-ons are for.From what I gather,by adding these devices,the Bradley will better be able to be set at and maintain a constant temperature? Now for my questions,,,What does PID,SSR,heatsink,Raptor-Guru stand for? None of the posts on the past 5 pages explains this,to me,and I'm still in the dark,as to what this whole conglomoration will accomplish? Then there are updates,as to the wiring,and the right length of the Thermocoupler,,,so if someone out there,wishes to send me an e-mail,(as for non-embarrasment here)as to the correct purpose of this add-on,and further explanations,as to the correct equipment needed,,I would appreciate this.
I am looking to buy my Bradley next month,but since have noticed a bigger model to be forthcoming in May,but I may not wait that long.If this added feature will make smoking easier,more care free,I will add it,if I have the proper guidance,,I just want to know the hows,and why's of this,in greater detail,thanks!!

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!

icerat4 · February 15, 2006, 07:39:32 PM

This seems like alot of time and money for all this stuff.I would think the best thing to do is buy one of the new smokers comming out soon with all these features.Thats just the way i see it.whats a few extra buck at that point and it dosent look like a wire nest.

ChefBill · February 15, 2006, 07:56:16 PM

icerat4,
Probably would be better, "IF" most of us didn't already have well in excess of $300 already invested in the "Original Bradley Smoker".. Why should I spend another $600+ and have to find someone to buy the first one, when I can have the same thing only 2 racks smaller for only $50 more.
If I didn't already have one, You're right. I'd probably pay the difference and go for the new one coming out.

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.

icerat4 · February 15, 2006, 08:27:46 PM

I see your point .I just bought mine 1 week ago not knowing this new one was commimg out.But with all the people ive fed in the last week with this unit i could sell it for 250 and throw in a few more bucks for the up grade.But me being the nice guy i am i am going to give this one away to a friend who cant afford one.By then ill be a pro smoker.All the people i have fed so far with this bs only making chicken and ribs absolutly love the food.So chez put me on the preorder list for the 6 rack upgrade.Boy i love my new toy.ALL you guys here have been a great help to make great smoked food with ease.Chez i am positive you will have some of my other friends calling you on this new smoker soon.Thank you all once again.

zhongyi · February 15, 2006, 09:00:58 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roadkill
 ...Then there are updates,as to the wiring,and the right length of the Thermocoupler,,,so if someone out there,wishes to send me an e-mail,(as for non-embarrasment here)as to the correct purpose of this add-on,and further explanations,as to the correct equipment needed,,I would appreciate this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am basically in the same boat as Roadkill. Maybe someone can post a parts list, basic wiring, etc. as a sticky

Roadkill · February 15, 2006, 09:25:47 PM

Will the new Bradley 6 Rack smoker,have this upgrade installed on it when it becomes available in a few months?This automatic temperature control,of that's what all these parts are being used for and being talked about here now? If so,I know I will wait,but do want to get on a waiting list now,instead of possibly waiting until the end of this summer,to get one.Can you put down a deposit now,for a new 6 tack version? And will this temp control,be available as a factory add-on,or still need to be home-designed? If this is the case of the latter,I may just stick with the purchase of a 4 rack,stainless steel version.

"PINK"-the only way,to devour a steak!

gary_CO · February 15, 2006, 09:50:35 PM

I'll take a stab at Roadkill's comments. Most importantly, I am nowhere near an expert at this stuff. I wouldn't even say "knowledgeable". But the exercise of writing this is good for me... I hope this is not patronizing and I'm posting here on the forum for others that might wonder what all the jargon is...

You're spot-on with what the controller accomplishes. As I started rambling about in another post on this forum, a limitation of the Bradley units is that the temperature controlling mechanism is a rheostat. Just like an adjustable light switch (dimmer) in your living room. You slide the temp control on the bottom of the main tower to adjust the amount of current that runs to the heating element. And then the heating element just runs at that rate, irregardless of the actual temperature inside the box. After some fiddling with the temp setting, you should be able to get near your desired temp.

But what if the ambient weather conditions change during your smoking session? Say the wind picks up, and/or the temperature drops a lot during the evening hours. You'll need to run outside and make adjustments to the temperature adjustment to compensate for the change in the ambient weather. This will likely take more than one adjustment to compensate for things like adjusting the temp slider too much and overshooting your desired temp, etc.

One solution is to use a standard temperature controller, like the TS units mentioned in other posts here. The raptor-guru device is another brand of standard controller. They are a retail product produced by the bunch at www.bbqguru.com and is a "turnkey" package. The standard controllers work just like the thermostat you have on your home heating system – if the measured temperature is below your target temp, then electricity is supplied to the heating element. This is in contrast to a rheostat which just applies an amount of current to the heating element irregardless of what the actual temp is.

A fancier type controller is a PID unit. PID stands for "proportional, integral, derivative". These units are different from the standard controllers in that they work like rheostats (dimmers) and thermostats at the same time. So while the controller is turning on/off the heating element, it is also adjusting the amount of current going to the heating element. Additionally, the PID controllers are fancy logical, electronic devices that use math (calculus) to "learn" and anticipate how your system performs. Then they adjust themselves to stay more accurate. The result – less overshooting your desired temp and most likely the ability to reach your target temp quicker. Edit note: The comment above about a PID also working as a rheostat is incorrect - see bubbagump's comment below (16 Feb 2006 : 00:21:46)!

An analogy between a standard controller and a PID version that comes to mind is a bicycle. Consider the standard controller as a simple one-gear bike. The PID controller would be more like a bike with a lot of different gears. They both produce the same thing, the latter is just fancier, more efficient, and probably more accurate in getting to the end result.

How either a standard controller, or a PID model, work is they measure the temperature and then put out some sort of electrical signal. This signal is directed to a relay switch. A relay is just an automatic, electrically triggered switch. So when the controller senses that a boost in temp is needed it sends out it's electrical signal to a relay. When the relay gets that signal, it switches on the current to another component (in this case, your heating element). So a relay is just an electrically triggered switch. One problem with regular relays is they take a lot of mechanical wear-and-tear with all the switching on and off. So they have a tendency to fail frequently. In the digital age, its become possible to make a relay that doesn't have any internal moving parts, everything inside one is electronic. These are known as SSRs, or solid state relays. Without the moving mechanical parts, they generally last longer.

One potential problem with relays is that they (either traditional ones or solid state ones) generate heat while they do all that switching on/off. Heat is one of the worst enemies of electronic parts. One way to reduce the heat generated by a device, such as the SSR, is to mount it on a heatsink. A heatsink is just a chunk of metal, usually with a lot of little metal fins like a radiator, which helps dissipate heat. They are common in many electronic gadgets. Your personal computer likely has more than one inside for helping to dissipate heat from some of its components. From others practical experience here, a heatsink isn't always required.

So, in summary, the temp controller measures the actual temperature, and then switches the heating element on/off to reach/maintain that temp. This is instead of just adjusting a dimmer to run at a certain rate. They will give you a more accurate temperature, with less human intervention.

Is it worth waiting to purchase one of the new Bradley models versus doing the modification yourself? That's a difficult question only you can answer. First of all, I don't think it's public knowledge (yet) what the "digital control" on the new models means. Will it be a standard controller, a PID version, simply fancier switches, etc.?

Second, you have to like tinkering with electronic stuff to "want" to do this mod yourself. It does take a few tools. For example you will most likely want to cut a square hole to mount a controller. A lot of people use a rotary tool, such as a Dremel or Foredom, to allow them to cut the square hole. And you'll probably have to drill other holes. Drilling large holes in metal is harder than most people think. I guess you could find a "sheet metal shop" that could do it for you, but they have to want such a small job and it'd cost you a few $'s. Or another alternative is to recruit a friend that has the proper tools and likes tinkering with this kind of stuff.

Another consideration in making your purchasing decision concerns the Bradley warranty on new products. From what I've gathered here, Bradley is very good about replacing defective components while the product is under warranty. If you go in and modify the parts, I'd be extremely surprised if Bradley would honor the warranty. Companies just can't take responsibility for user-altered products. It is possible to implement one of the controller mods without modifying any of the Bradley parts. Mounting all the controller gadgets inside a separate "project box" and plugging it in-between the smoke generator and the main tower would achieve that. But this thread started out illustrating how bubbagump had implemented a very functional, highly elegant installation. I'm trying to duplicate his setup, mostly anyway. I'm sure I'll be voiding the warranty on my smoke generator.

------------
My cost so far to modify mine:
* PID controller, 10amp SSR, thermocouple (temp probe), shipping $68
 from www.auberins.com
* Another thermocouple, a quick-disconnect minijack, shipping $62
 from www.omega.com (Identical to bubbagump's)
- I wasted $5 getting two thermocouples...
* Two 10 amp AC switches, fuse holder from RadioShack $8
- turns out I didn't need the fuse holder...
* Soldering iron, Dremel, Unibit drill bit, pieces of wire, $0
 - Already had these items

Again, I have to stress that I'm not an expert in this stuff. Just some layperson who has read what others have done and tried to get an understanding of it. It's just a good writing exercise for me to ramble about it :) I'm sure others will point out inaccuracies in my rambling, and certainly have a much better understanding of it. My thanks to all those types that have helped me understand the little that I know.

[ramble off]

ChefBill · February 15, 2006, 10:31:14 PM

GO FOR IT gary_co You did good.[:D]

ChefBill
If you can eat it, you can smoke it.